Part 14
Engine
Protection Bars
The oil cooler on the Ascot appears somewhat
vulnerable if the bike were to be dropped on the right side. I investigate the
possibility of engine bars, which would have to be in character with the bike.
This involves correspondence with Miles Hunter of Thunderbike in New Zealand.
They may be able to make a custom set based on those they make for the Triumph
Tiger.
A-Mon 09-07-2001 21:09
Ascot has finally arrived in HK, although Steve forgot to send the keys and
I expect to collect them from the post office tomorrow!
A few people, including my mechanic here have commented on the
vulnerability of the oil cooler in a rhs drop. If you want to refresh your
memory on the location and mounting of my oil cooler, the pictures are in
Part 4 of the story at:
http://www.alecgore.com/ascotstory.html
Thunderbike Powersports
I'm wondering if the engine bars that you make, mainly for the Tiger, would
fit the Ascot. The engine and frame are basically the Legend TT 2000 model.
The sump is from the T-bird 2000 model. If they wouldn't fit, how much
customisation would it take?
M-Wed 11/07/2001 04:02
Good to hear from you again, you must be rapt to finally have the beast in
Hong Kong. I'm afraid at this stage there is just no way to fit our bars to
the Legend, depending on the version (we have two). Some or all of the
mounting points just don't exist on these bikes.
One thing I've looked at is cutting down one of our '99 Tiger bars so you
have the front section to guard the cooler (there is no mounting point for the
rear part on the Legend), but this will loose a lot of the bars strength - it
would likely save the cooler from a car park knock or a tip over but would not
help much if it went down at any speed.
The other questions are if it can actually be made to fit (I'll check this
today) and if it extends out far enough to really protect the cooler. Can you
tell me the measurement from the bottom corner of the radiator to the outer
edge of the cooler ? This would give me a better idea of how far out from the
bike the bar would need to be.
A final thought, there is an American shop making crash bars for Legends -
they look more suited to a '59 Thunderbird than a hard core Street Tracker but
may serve the purpose. I'm not sure they'd be wide enough though. You can
check them out at http://www.mascycles.com
Ma's Cycles
Wed 11/07/2001 06:28
Thanks for the reply. I guessed it might be the case. Would you be willing
to custom make a pair, if it is possible to fit them? I'll go over the Ascot
carefully with camera and take measurements so we can assess mounting points
and distances. Will get back to you. Don't like the Ma's bars. They look like
"learner" protection we used to fit on old 250s! Your bars look the part,
especially since the Ascot is mimicking a dirt-track bike.
Wed 11/07/2001 13:53
Just been down the bike shop and looked at Ascot again. Gets registered
today, so I should have it out on the street tonight. Yes, rapt indeed: You
wouldn't believe the difference in the sound between this one an my 95 T-bird,
and that's without the off-road pipes. After the pre-registration exam, we'll put the
Mecatwin pipes on. Should be fantastic then.
Anyway, I've measured the distance from the outer edge of the radiator
cover on the rhs and the outer edge of the oil cooler rhs is 3 and 7/16s
inches.
I printed out the mounting
instructions for the Tiger engine bars
http://www.thunderbike.co.nz/sales/CrashBars/instructions/instructions.htm
and took them with me to
compare on the Legend. I don't think that you could ever get access to the
crankcase bolts on the Legend because the exhaust pipes are in the way; also
the hoses from the sump to the oil cooler.
JL makes a classic engine guard and there is a picture in
their website
http://www.jacklilley.com. Trouble is they are in chrome, which
wouldn't go well with the black Legend engine.
M-Fri 13/07/2001 03:15
I looked into the assorted crash bar options and came up with the
following:
THUNDERBIKE BARS: Turns out that our
'99 model Tiger bars would
virtually bolt strait on. The crankcase bolts we use for the lower mounting
are just below the crank covers on each side of the engine, looking at the
pictures I'm sure these would actually be well above the line of the exhaust
pipes. Also the bar is well outboard of the oil cooler so should protect it
well. My only concern is the lack of a mounting point for the rear of the bar
as this contributes a lot to the strength, I'm still trying to think of a fix
for this one but must admit we spent quite a bit of time on it in the past (we
wanted to make production Legend bars) and never came up with a solution that
didn't look like a plumbers nightmare. I'll put a little more time into this
as a tidy installation could be of use to both of us.
LILLEY BARS: If these are wide enough to guard the cooler and you like the
looks (apart from the chrome) why not ask Steve to refinish a set? A plater
could strip off the chrome and then you can powder coat them black to blend in
with the engine. I must admit that I think our bars would be functionally
superior to the Lilley ones (on bulbous tanked Tigers at least) but in an
application like the Ascot theirs would be much less obtrusive - though I have
only seen pictures of them.
That's all I can come up with right now, I shall go and maul a Legend in
search of crash bar mounting points :-).
So, I write to Steve
Lilley to get his advice as well, to which I get a slightly surprising reply!
A-Fri 13/07/2001 16:11
Other people seem more concerned about the oil cooler than me! Suppose I
think that if I haven't dropped a bike in 21 years then, touch wood, I'm not
going to start now. However, there is the problem here of people parking cars
or bikes close to you.
Question: would your classic engine bars fit the Ascot with the oil cooler
on. I notice you are using the same mounting point as the cooler. Perhaps it
would just need a longer bolt.
I notice your bars are chrome. How much would it cost to strip the chrome
off and powder coat them black?
Yes, they are spoil the looks, but damage is also expensive. What would you
do?
Grateful for any advice / suggestions.
PS Miles Hunter of Thunderbike recommended your bars for the Ascot. He said
theirs for the Tiger would fit, but felt yours look more "the part" for a
classic bike.
S-Fri 13/07/2001 17:08
Honest answer, do not fit the bars.
I don't like them and I think you will
have a clearance problem with your right leg when operating the rear brake
lever. On the other hand you may enjoy painful shins!!!
Sat 21/07/2001 13:39
Thanks for the informative
and fair reply. Haven't replied earlier due to time spent with the Ascot.
Had a few teething problems caused by all sorts of crap that was in the fuel
tank and clogged up the carbs. Sorted now, I hope!
Steve Lilley is against any
kind of engine bars because of the looks. Aesthetically, he may be right.
However, if I'm going to start using this bike to it's full potential once
it's run in, I'm still thinking a set of Thunderbike bars would not be out of
place on a bike that looks fairly aggressive already. Steve also reckoned his
bars could get in the way of using the rear brake!
To help you with your thoughts
on mounting points, I've taken a few pictures of the Ascot: As well as the oil
cooler, there's the crank case breather to remember. There is also very little
room between the water pipe between the radiator and the water pump, but I think
you already get round that for the Tiger?
Oil Cooler
rhs engine mount top
rhs crank case bolts
rhs engine mount rear
(lovely flat slides - we've no
retained the Ascot TT covers using custom-made small stainless brackets, but
have the K&N pods underneath)
lhs engine mount top
lhs front view of crank case
breather
lhs crank case bolts - not
much room between them and the water pipe
lhs engine mount point rear
M-Mon 23/07/2001 07:39
Thanks for the pictures,
they're definitely a help. We can only see one problem with adapting our
bars and that is the water pipe on the left side, on the early Tigers we use
two empty bolt holes so clearance isn't a problem but with the Legend we'd
need to use the crankcase bolts and the bar will space the heads downward
another 5mm (plus we use longer bolts that are a full cap head - not like
the short/rounded originals). The bars that are a close fit for the Legend
are for the later Tigers which have a moulded rubber hose so clearance isn't
a problem. The solution we think is to adapt the bars we're currently
developing for the new 955i Tiger, they'll be stainless steel so the bottom
plates are thinner and will use the standard bolts, these should be ready in
a week or so and we'll have a pair to play with then.
For the top rear mount we have
two solutions. One is to tie the two sides together with a bar running behind
the cam cover so they brace each other, the other is to simply fit a rubber
buffer to the end of the mount and have it bearing against the cylinder head.
If you have an opinion for or
against either option please let me know.
A-Mon 23/07/2001 08:39
Thanks for
the pictures, they're definitely a help.
Glad they are.
We can only see one problem with adapting our
bars and that is the water pipe on the left side.
Thought it might be! How do
you get round it? Suppose one way would be to have a custom-made water pipe
with a different shaped bend in it, if that avoided having a heavy-looking
mounting going over / round the water pipe.
with the
Legend we'd need to use the crankcase bolts and the bar will space the heads downward
another 5mm (plus we use longer bolts that are a full cap head - not like
the short/rounded originals).
Is there room?
The bars that are a close fit for the Legend are
for the later Tigers which have a moulded rubber hose so clearance
isn't a problem.
Would the Tiger moulded rubber
hose fit the Legend or would the look be out of place?
The solution we think is to
adapt the bars we're currently
developing for the new 955i Tiger, they'll be stainless steel so the bottom
plates are thinner and will use the standard bolts, these should
be ready in a week or so and we'll have a pair to play with then.
Looked at your website: The
955i ones are a touch wide. Wouldn't want them to be any wider than they need
to be, but then again, the Ascot bars are wide. Stainless steel: But you would
then powder coat them black to match the Legend's black engine?
For the top
rear mount we have two solutions. One is to tie the two sides together with a bar
running behind the cam cover so they brace each other, the other is to
simply fit a rubber buffer to the end of the mount and have it bearing
against the cylinder head. If you have an opinion for or against either
option please let me know.
Looks-wise, the rubber buffer
option is probably the best. You should know though that I've had problems
with nearly all the Triumph standard rubber components on my 95 T-bird in the
humid and highly acidic Hong Kong atmosphere. I had to replace things like
carb rubbers, mirror boots, brake line boots, headlight bracket rubber
mounting etc. etc. However, none of the jap bikes seem to have problems with
their rubber compounds, so if you choose what compound you use carefully then
we should be OK.
Thanks for your time and
efforts in doing this Legend product development. If it works out well, I'm
sure we can promote them in the lists in Yahoo!
A-Fri 03/08/2001 09:06
Any news on the engine bars?
M-Sat 04/08/2001 06:43
Sorry for being slow with a
reply, things are very hectic here at the moment and I've got way behind with
work. We've got a small problem at the moment as the only Legend we had in the
shop is gone so there's no bike to play with right now. We do have a
Thunderbird due in for some major work in the next couple of days (from Hong
Kong believe it or not) so that should be close enough figure out the details
on the crash bars. The bars you'd have seen on the Website are for the 885cc
Tiger but the stainless 955i ones are almost identical. If you think they're
to wide that could be a problem, the change to the rear mount would be a
simple modification but to narrow the whole thing down is a relatively major
job. The rubber radiator hose should be adaptable but at this point I don't
think it would be necessary. And yes, the bars would be powder coated black.
I'm about to leave town for a couple of days so will follow up on this and get
back to you on Monday. Apologies again for the delays.
A-Sat 04/08/2001 08:35
Wonder whose T-bird you've
got coming down .... ?
Never mind if the bars are a
tad wide, the look is better than using a rear mount, I think. If you know you
can get between the water pipe on the left side, then that'll be great.
Wait to hear how you get on
....
M-Thu 23/08/2001 06:38
I've finally got a set of
these bars bolted up to a bike, it's possible to make them fit but not quite
as easy as I hoped. The engine mount to crankcase bolt distance is slightly
longer on the Tiger than the Legend, just enough so we'd either have to fit
spacers to the bottom bolts (not possible with the steel water pipe) or
reshape the bottom mounting plate - I looked at fitting a rubber bottom hose
from the Tiger but this isn't possible without a lot of work, for that reason
I'd reshape the plates.
The other mod required is the top rear mounting point,
John and I prefer the idea of a brace between the two crash bars but whether
we do that or use the buffer idea the bar will need some reshaping. Neither is
a major job, just takes a bit of time. Because of the amount we'd have to
change the bars we're not looking at a production version at this stage - the
set-up cost for making them in volume probably isn't justified. I can modify a
set of Tiger bars as a one-off for you, the regular cost of the bars is NZ$455
and I'd expect the extra time and refinishing to bring that up to NZ$600.
I've
included some pictures below to give you an idea of how the bars would look in
place, I don't have an oil cooler on hand so try to imagine the white piece of
cardboard as a suitable representation :-). The positioning of the "cooler" is
my best guess based on your pictures. If you think these would be bearable or
have any suggestions for another way to adapt them let me know.
A-Sat 25/08/2001 23:39
Thanks for giving special
consideration to fitting the Tiger bars. Thanks for the pictures. Good to
see them fitted up to a T-bird / Legend, although it's difficult to get a
true impression of how they would look without seeing the who bike with bars
and tank fitted.
Sorry, that it appears to be
going to involve more work than we originally thought. In the absence of
anything else remotely elegant or suitable on the world market, I'd still like
to give it a ago, even if it means a totally custom-made pair. However, some
more thoughts first:
(1) If you look at the photos
I sent you of the Ascot, I don't think there is enough room behind the engine
to put a brace through.
The throttle cable linkage to
the FCRs is in the way, plus there's a hose there (although, that could
probably be re-routed). Also, I'm not keen on the looks of so much metal pipe
work through there; back to the plumbers nightmare again! I appreciate the
strength that would be gained from such a set up though.
(2) You wrote:
John and I
prefer the idea of a brace between the
two crash bars but whether we do that or use the buffer idea the bar will
need some reshaping.
Looked at from above the angle
between the two parts of each crash bar would have to be made more acute, i.e.
close up the rear bar so that it braces to a rubber mounting against the rear
section of the engine block.
(3) You wrote:
The engine mount to crankcase bolt distance is
slightly longer on the Tiger than the Legend, just enough so we'd either
have to fit spacers to the bottom bolts (not possible with the steel
water pipe) or reshape the bottom mounting plate.
Wouldn't this look like a
bodged job? Couldn't we just make up a custom pair with a reduced length, so
there is no need for spacers or reshaping the mounting plate?
(4) You wrote:
I can modify a
set of Tiger bars as a one-off for you, the regular cost of the
bars is NZ$455 and I'd expect the extra time and refinishing to bring
that up to NZ$600.
I'd be happy with that price
for a quality piece of work (as your reputation suggests I would get! :) )
Any other thoughts?
M-Thu 13/09/2001 10:07
Me again. I'd forgotten about the FCRs,
looking at the pictures again I think you're quite right. For your bike at
least we'll go with the buffer-against-head arrangement. The rear legs of
the bars will need to be bent inward a little but that should be no
problem (the upright bars are machine bent and it looks tidy).
Likewise relocating the bottom mount upward
is the best solution in that area, I had a look at the jig we build the bars
on and this also should be relatively easy.
We have one hold-up in that the guy who
does the bending and welding has gone to the UK for a months holiday and
isn't due back for another two weeks, if you are happy to go ahead with the
project I'll get it underway as soon as he returns.
Sorry (again!) for this rather long-winded
process.
A-Thu 13/09/2001 10:50
Sounds good to me. Don't mind the wait as I'm sure
these will be worth it. Not having them should keep me sane for a while,
especially as I've just finished running in. I've already touched down the rhs
pipe bracket / centre stand twice!
A-Sun 28/10/2001 21:34
Just wondering if you have any news for me?
M-Mon 05/11/2001 03:59
Sorry for the slow reply (as usual), summer
is coming to NZ and things have gone ballistic down here. I've had a hold-up
with the bars in that the companies who make some of the components (the
plates and bars are machine stamped/bent to keep costs down) won't make just
one set, they want to do a complete production batch to justify their set-up
time. I hope to have this organised by the end of the week, will keep you
informed.
A-Sun 09/12/2001 21:16
How are we doing? Any chance of
some progress before I come down to your place for the tour on 3rd January?
Wed 12/12/2001 06:18
I'm just waiting to get the bars back from
the people who do the bending and welding, they tell me they'll be ready next
week so I'll be able to trial fit them to a bike then I hope. Getting
engineering work done here is a nightmare right now, everyone is busy and
don't want to know about small (low profit) projects like this.
I live in hope that I'll just have to bolt
the bars on and align the rear mounting arm to finish the job - you never
know, one of my jobs has to go to plan sooner or later :-) I'll let you know
next week how this all works out.
to
be continued ...
