Part 12
Debris
in the Fuel Tank!
A-Fri 13-07-2001 20:34
Despite
defying the idea that Friday 13th meant anything by having an absolute blast
on the police bikes with four colleagues today, the gremlins struck as soon as
I picked up the Ascot after work.
Got
3/10ths of a mile down the road from Sea Island and the bike died with all the
symptoms of fuel starvation. On checking, rhs cylinder was not getting any
fuel. The rhs carburettor had nothing in the bowl. Check the fuel line from
the fuel petcock; fuel was flowing OK. Opened the fuel tank: what a disaster!
All the paint in the neck of the tank and, as far as I can see some inside the
tank as well is blistered and flaking off. Since there is no filter in the
fuel line to the carbs, I imagine some of these flakes of paint are getting
down into the carbs and blocking the fuel.
Not a
good start. I pushed the bike back to Sea Island in 90F and 90% humidity. I've
read in the Legend lists of others having this problem and even getting their
tanks replaced under warranty. Advice please?
I
copied the above message to the Legend Riders Club in Yahoo! This is what had
been written earlier in the club about this problem:
"I'm
on my 3rd T-bird and 5th gas tank and I can tell you from experience that if
your tank is painted down into the filler neck it WILL blister. My
95 was so bad that it clogged the jets and left me with a twin cylinder
special. Of the 5 tanks I've had, the only one that did not peel was not
painted in the inside of the filler area.
"My
2000 TBS had the same malady and Triumph replaced the tank as the peeling
had extended beyond the neck. This can be repaired in it's early stages by
trimming away the paint below the top sealing surface. Even the replacement
tank started to peel but since trimming it back, no more troubles."
S-Fri 13-07-2001 20:44
As
far as I know that was a new tank that Mecatwin had painted, so I'm surprised
that this has happened. The quick answer is to fit an inline filter for the
moment. I checked on both the bikes downstairs and they do not show any
problems. I can send you another tank, but must have the other one back of
course. Let me know.
I
wrote to Mr Wong at Sea Island for advice too:
A-Fri 13-07-2001 21:32
Quick
reply from Steve at Jack Lilley. As I let you know on the telephone, he
suggests:
(1)
Put in a temporary filter; and
(2)
He will send a new fuel tank, but we must send the old one back
What
do you think?
I
could write to him and ask that he send the tank to Sea Island first, then we
could use the same packing to send the old one back to him.
After
talking with Mr Wong, I replied to Steve:
A-Fri 13-07-2001 21:32
Quick
reply much appreciated. I'm sure Mecatwin had a new tank painted, several
people in the Yahoo Legend list have had this problem and got their tanks
replaced in the US.
Could
you send out a new tank with paintwork inside that is totally OK. If you send
the tank direct to Sea Island, we can use the same packing to send back the
present one.
Meanwhile,
Mr Wong will get a longer fuel tube (from the petcock to the carbs) to allow
room to fit in a filter. He will do that. There's not much room between the
fuel tank and the airbox covers nor the carbs.
S-Sat 14-07-2001 0:46
Will
get onto it on Monday, no post 'til then.
Knowing how
much I'd been looking forward to getting the Ascot, people in the Legend
Club replied with a mixture of annoyance (at the problem) and sympathy:
(1)
"I'd talk to Steve Lilley about it. I can't imagine him not standing
behind his product."
Being quick to
reassure others of Steve's typical excellent response to a problem, I wrote:
A-Fri 13-07-2001 21:46
Of
course, I e-mailed him simultaneously with posting to this list. By return of
e-mail he offered to replace the tank.
I was
just hoping there might be a solution that others had tried that we could
implement here without swapping tanks half way around the world. However,
that's probably the best option, given it's brand new and under warranty.
(2)
"This problem has been an issue since the first T-birds in 95 (I've had
a 95,96 and My 2000 TBS). IF
the inside of the filler neck is painted, it this will Happen EVERY time! I
had a crash in Dec 95 and replaced the original tank with a new one -
painted inside the filler neck - it peeled; the 2nd replacement (from
Triumph under warranty) was
not painted and never peeled. My 96 was not painted inside and never peeled.
MY 2000 TBS was painted - peeled and Triumph replaced it (8 weeks). The
replacement, also painted inside started to peel immediately.
"The
cure is amazingly simple. take a sharp knife and carefully trim off and
remove all the paint below the top sealing rim. NO FURTHER TROUBLE. I'm
going on two years now .
"Curiously,
I haven't seen posts from the UK detailing this issue. Only warmer climates
seem to be affected, but I could be wrong.
"It
seems a shame that you waited so long for your bike and were shut down so
quickly. FWIW, trimming
is what I would do."
(3)
".... truly am sorry for you, considering how much anticipation you
must have had. I'm not a mechanic (we all know that by now), but my two
cents would be against self-help/quick fix here. It is one thing to trim the
paint around the neck or to use some epoxy to set the flakes, but here it
sounds like the flakes already have made their way into the carburettor.
Just stabilizing the flakes now won't get your bike up and running. Even
replacing the tank won't do that. You're going to need someone to clear out
the damage that the flaking paint did to the innards of the bike. Hope that
it gets resolved soon."
(4)
"Unfortunately, the damage is done (my 95 had the same thing occur) The
trimming is a suggestion to prevent a re-occurrence, which WILL happen if the
tank neck is painted.
"It's
a major bummer for Alec to wait so long to have this happen right out of the
gate. I'm pretty lenient with Triumph but this is an inexcusable problem
(right? Steve!). They should have fixed this years ago and the solution is
very simple - DON'T PAINT INSIDE THE NECK!!! ARE YOU LISTENING TRIUMPH?!!!
Aren't the warranty claims killing you?"
In
view of the replies above and Mr Wong coming to the same realisation (that
even a new tank could have just the same problem) I write to Steve:
A-Sat 14-07-2001 6:27
Please
hold off on sending the tank. Mr Wong, took the tank off last night and
thoroughly cleaned it out using whatever and an air gun. He reckons we should
try again first. I'll keep you posted.
S-Sat 14-07-2001 17:17
OK,
I'll wait to hear from you. I hope that he can effect a cure, from what I have
already learnt about Mr Wong he probably has. He sounds an absolute wizard.
Are you sure he doesn't want to work over here?
A-Sat 14-07-2001 19:53
Here's
some pictures, just to let you know what happened to the paint in the tank
neck. From people's comments in the Yahoo! Legend Club, I'm far from the
only one this has happened to. One guy in the US is on his 4th tank. Seems
some people get bikes without the tank neck painted; others with and those
give trouble, particularly if they go to hot places. You'd think
Triumph would've sorted this one since they've known about it since 1996.
A
mess isn't it!
Mr
Wong is going to cut out most of it. He has disassembled and cleaned the
Flat Slides. The paint bits had blocked the slow jets killing the idle
completely.
You
are right about Mr Wong. He works typically crazy Chinese hours. Perhaps he
wouldn't do it for everyone, but we've known each other about 11 years.
Just
for comparison, I took some pictures of a Honda that was in Sea Island to
compare what a tank ought to look like!
I wrote to the
Legend Riders Club:
A-Sat 14-07-2001 20:20
Thanks
for your responses, in particular for sharing your experiences and advice.
I've decided to stick with the tank for the time being, mainly because how
could we guarantee the same problem wouldn't arise with any replacement? I
agree totally that Triumph should have sorted this ages ago. Looked in a Honda
tank for comparison: spotless!
My
mechanic has cleaned out the tank and the fuel line, cutting out the paint
that was in the neck. He is also installing a filter (Honda part) in the fuel
line between the petcock and the carbs.
We
had the flat slides off this afternoon. The slow jets were blocked, explaining
the total loss of idling. They've been cleaned out and it's being put back
together as I write.
Mr
Wong is a true mechanic. Steve's calling him a Wizard is not far off the
truth. He worked hard over the weekend. In the early hours of Monday morning,
I wrote to Steve:
A-Mon 16-07-2001 2:23
I'm a
very happy man tonight. Here's how:
Mr
Wong has been truly great. God knows how many hours he's worked on the Ascot
since Friday evening!
He's
cleaned out the fuel tank after removing the petcock, which he also cleaned.
He's disassembled the carbs and then put them back together after cleaning
them. The total loss of idle speed was the result of debris in the slow jets.
He
used 7 litres of petrol in all to flush the tank. The debris that flushed out
was quite revealing. I think it would be unfair to blame Triumph totally for
this. I know the paint in the tank neck flaked, but the debris shows (1) rust,
(2) paint flakes from the neck, and (3) paint powder from rubbing down, which
must have been Mecatwin when they did the paint job on the tank. There was
also water, but that was probably from HK petrol.
Here's
the evidence. This tray was clean blue plastic before the contents of the tank
were flushed into it.
Mr
Wong cleaned out all the flaking paint from the neck of the tank and has
treated it to stop it happening again.
To
prevent any debris that might be remaining in the tank from getting into the
carbs, he's installed a Honda fuel filter in the fuel line between the petcock
and the carbs. (The white plastic thing.)
Work
of a Wizard - Fitting the K&N Pod Filters
As if
fixing the problem with the debris from the fuel tank wasn't enough, Mr Wong
also took the opportunity to fit the K&N pod air filters onto the FCR
Flat Slides. What's so good is that he found a way of doing it AND retaining
the Ascot airbox covers, although I didn't know it until he'd done it. I've
got it all! I wrote to Steve:
A-Sat 14-07-2001 19:53
Mr
Wong's persuaded me to fit the K&N pod filters. I regret that we are
going to loose the looks of those lovely side panels. However, there was a
small crack in one of the trumpets and they did not fit flush with the
air box holes. Mr Wong is afraid that this might let in dirt with unfiltered
air. In which case, we cannot be sure the fuel starvation came from the
paint particles or from unfiltered air.
Similarly,
to the Legend Riders Club:
A-Sat 14-07-2001 20:20
Despite
my efforts to save the side Legend air box covers (because I think they look
the part), I'm persuaded that the seal between the carbs and the modified
stock air box will never be perfect. There is still a chance that dirty air
could enter on the carb side of the filter element. As of tomorrow, the
K&N pod filters will be on the FCRs (suitable aluminium adapters come
with the K&N kit) and hopefully we'll be up and running. Fingers
crossed!!
Continuing
the happy story to Steve:
A-Mon 16-07-2001 2:23
Continuing
with the happy story:
Went
down to look at the bike after dinner this evening, expecting to see the tank
cleaned, the fuel filter fitted, and the K&N pods on FCRs, because that is
all Mr Wong and I had talked of having done. Can you believe? He must have
been reading the Ascot Story or just forming his own opinion, because he's
come up with some great mods and fixings that all you to have K&N pod
filters AND the, in my opinion, good looking Legend air box covers fitted.
(Before
I forget, one question on the FCRs and the aluminium adapters for the pods.
Should there be any gaskets between the adapters and the carbs. There were
none in the kit. Mr Wong used RTV liquid gasket, but asked if they were meant
to have any.)
This
is what he did: On each side, he's found a fixing point in three places to
secure the covers. For each one he's used a stainless steel bracket and screw,
except one point on the left side where there is no mounting and he had to use
a plastic tie. It works very well. There is no movement nor vibration.
RHS
cover, stainless bracket screwed to air box cover with push-fastener into the
gap filler plastic piece.
RHS
Stainless bracket with screws, fitted to frame.
RHS,
all put together - neat!
LHS
top point has no obvious mounting, so used a plastic tie to the frame.
Rear
point has stainless bracket and screw into frame. See also that the neck of
the ancillary air chamber has an adapter fitted at present, just to complete
the looks. Mr Wong's going to make a neat looking stopper / cover for it.
LHS
bottom point, the stainless bracket is screwed to the cover of the starter
motor.
Overall
look on LHS. Note that by raising the tank mounting slightly the petcock is
now well clear of the air box cover and, more importantly the petcock and the
tank itself and well away from the top of the FCRs.
Needless
to say, I'm extremely pleased with this solution; one that I wasn't even
expecting!
As
for the tuning of the FCRs, they are running spot on now. The bike starts
first push of the button after twisting the throttle twice to pump in some
fuel. It idles at 500-600 rpm when cold and 1000 rpm when hot. The carbs are
much quieter than before. There is none of the throbbing or leaky air sound
that I heard in yours and I had in mine before the K&N pods were fitted.
Be
interesting to see how this develops as the bike gets run in.
I
would recommend this set up to anyone now. The solution with the bell mouths
going into the stock air box was a good try, but the difference in the smooth
idle and the loss of the leaky air hissing noise with the new set up is
pronounced. Also, we are now relatively safe of air (and therefore dirt)
getting into the engine unfiltered. The air box covers look the part, go with
the black engine and do add a little extra protection to the K&N pods.
Be
glad of yours and / or Joe's opinion on these mods.
A-Mon 16-07-2001 3:02
Forgot
this one. Not much space to work in, but the results speak for themselves.
Don't know how he remembers where everything is. Note the little plastic box
that came out with all the stainless brackets and fasteners in.
Ohlins knob now secure.
(It was loose on arrival, which would have been problematical had it
conflicted with the back tyre.)
Know you don't go much on the
fly screen, but this National Cycle one is very well made and does the job.
They sent the wrong brackets (curved long ones instead of short straight
ones) and I'm still waiting for the short ones to arrive so that it's not
too far forward.
Home
at Last!
A-Mon 16-07-2001 3:02
Just
to show it's finally home. It was 1 o'clock when I got home, having stopped by
Sea Island to pick up the Ascot after late shift. Must go to bed! It's almost
3 o'clock, but I had to prepare the pictures. Tomorrow morning might be nice
for a ride. Got to run the bike in soon. It feels like it's not meant to hang
around below 3,500 rpms!
Nice
picture!
Oh
dear! Just like a speed camera picture. Wish there was something effective I
could do about that!
S-Mon 16-07-2001 19:54
Thanks
for all the messages and pictures!
That
Mr Wong needs to be cloned. He has made a very nice job of the panels, they do
look good. Just need to tidy the wiring a bit, but then if you used two horns
and mounted one on the right off the frame it would hide it a bit.
I
cannot believe that he works on the floor like that though. No bench?
I'm
really looking forward to the results you get from the engine once run in, do
keep a check on the jetting though.
An e-mail I received in
response to posting the content of this page in the Legend list.
Tue
17/07/2001 03:02
"Glad everything
appears to be set right now, Alec. Thanks also for staying up late and
loading the pictures. The bike looks great! I am soooooooo jealous...(well
at least envious). I spoke with one of the Triumph dealers here in Houston
(Motorcycle Mania on 1960) to see if they would consider taking on an Ascot
project. The owner said that since he only has two mechanics, he has all he
can handle with warranty work and repairs. He also said that he has about 50
projects he would LIKE to do if he ever had the time....oh well.
"Thanks for the due
diligence in keeping us all posted and Good Luck getting over 5,000."
Continue
.... 
